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[Music]

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there's a whole fleet of them look on

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the assay

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oh my gosh they're all going against the

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it was basically a cube with inside of

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sphere where the points of the cube

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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so this isn't anything that just is

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limited to the united states it's a

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hi everyone and welcome back to that ufo

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podcast very excited to kick it one off

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we've kept it quiet we've not hyped this

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one up online and i'm looking forward to

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people hearing it as it gets released uh

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no high none announcements for this one

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we're going to go straight in with mr

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george knapp and dr calm callahar

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gentlemen thank you for joining us on

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the podcast

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good to be here

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good to see you again yeah no thank you

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very much george it's good to have you

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back on anytime of course as well and

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listen congratulations both of you and

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obviously james lecatsky as well on the

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wonderful book i've got the copy of it

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right here skinwalkers at the pentagon

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an insider's account of the secret

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government ufo program

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quite a title it's quite eye-catching

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it's caused a huge amount of discussion

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george let me direct the first question

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to you why was now the right time to

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release this book

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well we've been wanting to release it

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for a while i think column and i started

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working on it with jim about two and a

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half years ago and we certainly wanted

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it out a lot sooner but there was a

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there's a dopser process a review

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process by the pentagon that took 14

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months

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uh to complete so

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there was a lot of time in between that

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we were just sort of uh

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waiting around for them to get things on

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and and get it done

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it's always a good time to have more

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information about these programs you

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know i've been speaking in public

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for the last couple of years and

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and even though i was not part of the

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program i i was allowed to know a little

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bit about what was going on in it not

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all of it but a lot of it and uh and i

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would dribble bits and pieces out

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in in this sense to uh to deflect some

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of the bad information that's been out

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there there's been a lot of confusion

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about what atep was

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what atip wasn't um some speculation

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about sap

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but of course most of the focus has been

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on atip which was a much smaller effort

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than ossap asap is maybe the biggest ufo

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study ever

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given how many personnel were working on

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it how much money they had to work on it

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they could have always used more it

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could have been bigger and accomplished

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more

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that's certainly true if it had been

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allowed to continue but with the world

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now really interested in focusing on

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ufos and uaps and related phenomena it

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seemed like a good time to go ahead and

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get it out as quickly as we could

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you've prompted my next question george

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you've done this before now um there's

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been some confusion over osap atep and

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funding which you've just addressed was

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there crossover between atep dod and

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asap dia or was it a conscious decision

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to carry on ossa in a much more focused

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manner as atap due to a drop in

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resources from a lack of funding

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a lot of truth in what you said there

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it's a kind of a mix and match and it's

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probably better for column to answer

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that i'll give you some of that uh

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whatsapp was the mother program it's the

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one that got the 22 million dollars that

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22 million that was uh secured by harry

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reid and some of his colleagues in the

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senate went to this program dia

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initiated it dia oversaw it the contract

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was awarded to bass 22 million dollars

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was given to bass over two plus years

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and uh they they hired uh more than 50

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people as many as 75 i think but column

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can address that

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they did the work they did the boots on

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the groundwork they built a gigantic

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database they did that work at the same

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time

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there was sort of a parallel effort

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inside the pentagon a much smaller

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effort um from what we know it did not

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have a an office and did not have a

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budget although i think lou has

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indicated they did have some funding

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from somewhere and that was a smaller

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focused effort that looked at at uh

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military encounters with ufos

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was at ossap rather was looking at a

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much broader picture ufos and related

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phenomena that took the investigators

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into some very strange areas there was

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interaction on it on occasion between

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those two groups um and column can

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probably fill in that

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yeah george i i think you pretty well

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summarized it uh very well

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um the main thing that asap was focused

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on was

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at the very very start of this

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um we had a lot of

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i suppose intellectual firepower that

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came together

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in designing the asap program people

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like jacques valley hal put off robert

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bigelow

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john schussler and other people

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and the decision was made very early on

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to include

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both the standard

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ufo investigation

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framework which is the nuts and bolts

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sensor driven framework but also

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secondly and in parallel the human

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effects which is much more complicated

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much more messy much more expensive

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and we were very very lucky that dr

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lekatsky at the defense intelligence

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agency

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also had a team with him who were also

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very

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um

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willing to open the doors to be on

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sensor driven research um and sensor

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driven research obviously is the nuts

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and bolts of

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of the entire field of of ufology

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but the human effects i mean your ufos

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do affects you

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affect humans

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so uh the asap people and the dia people

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came together and agreed at the very

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beginning of this program to essentially

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run both in parallel so the design of

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the asap program even the people we

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hired and also the people um the actual

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projects that were were tasked out to

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people on a daily basis not to mention

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the design of the architecture of the

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uh the the ufo uh data warehouse as as

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we called it um all of this was designed

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from that original cause which was we're

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going to study both the nuts and bolts

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aspects of ufos as well as the human

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effects

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way from the initial sort of uh what

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what john mack used to call ontological

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shock

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you know the the change in world view um

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all the way through physiological

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effects

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cases

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psychological effects and then you know

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further on

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as you get into deeply investigating

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the same group of eyewitnesses over time

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they start spilling out these secrets

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that you know weird things are starting

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to happen in their surroundings um and

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that leads into

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you know uh dreams are being affected

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psychology is being affected so human

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effects is very complex

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but also very necessary so the asap

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program i believe is pretty unique

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um in the annals of u.s government

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programs

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in both focusing on the nuts and bolts

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as well as the the human effects

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column i'd love to follow up with that

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what obstacles did you encounter from

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the us government when ossa was

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operational and did the nickname ata

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keep you off the radar in some cases

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um certainly uh the last part of your

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question certainly that was the case

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because

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um within less than a year of the

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program running it became obvious that

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you know we were we the the program was

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actually running below the radar for

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quite quite some time

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um but it was decided because of the

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amount of progress that was being made

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in certain certain areas

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that

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senator reid decided to go ahead and pen

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a letter and begin the process of

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initiating a a special access program

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in order to do that he sent a letter and

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he used for for

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security purposes he used a nickname it

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wasn't ossop it was atip

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that's the genesis of the atip moniker

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so atip

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later on was used as george

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uh mentioned

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in in a separate pentagon

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program

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that was focused mostly on the the

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threat analysis to what was

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going on both on the east and west coast

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of the united states

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but the

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the uh asap

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attempt at special access program

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uh designation run into some

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bureaucratic hurdles as we talked in the

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book but um again there was a

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distinction between ossop and atip even

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from that perspective atip was

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a nickname that was used for asap in

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senator harry reid's letter to the

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deputy secretary of defense

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now both of you i'd like to mention that

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the experiences mentioned in the book

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sometimes are nothing short of harrowing

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george when i interviewed you earlier in

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the year you mentioned hitchhiker effect

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was something that you had potentially

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experienced yourself or at least had

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followed to potentially part of the

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family too

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given your knowledge of what others have

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experienced and they've substantially

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subsequently suffered medical effects

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what goes through your mind in moments

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like you've talked about in the book

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well we're talking about the hitchhiker

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effect and you know the the the nids

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team that have been on skinwalker ranch

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had uh had experienced some of that

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during their first study

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it became

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more harrowing to use your word during

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the awsap study things would follow you

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home in essence what happens on the

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ranch doesn't stay on the ranch and it's

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it's hard to get your head around that

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it's harder still to believe that it's

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true but it is i had over the last

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couple of years before the book came out

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had described some of those experiences

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some of them in artfully i had described

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them in public presentations and you

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know i think people probably thought i

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was making it up or was completely

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exaggerating now with the book out you

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can see that i wasn't exaggerating the

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people to whom this happened i mean it

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happens to a lot of folks who went on

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the under the ranch property and no one

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could really explain why

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the term hitchhiker i think was

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00:11:20,150 --> 00:11:17,920
described by one of the intelligence

283
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:20,160
operatives who visited the ranch during

284
00:11:23,990 --> 00:11:21,760
the asap study

285
00:11:26,389 --> 00:11:24,000
and the stories that we've told are of

286
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:26,399
these big tough experienced

287
00:11:29,829 --> 00:11:28,000
battle-hardened

288
00:11:32,310 --> 00:11:29,839
agents and operatives intelligence

289
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:32,320
officers who would visit the property

290
00:11:35,829 --> 00:11:34,079
they're ready to take on anything

291
00:11:38,150 --> 00:11:35,839
they're not afraid of what it is and

292
00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:38,160
then they encounter very strange things

293
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:40,480
now the one story that that column uh

294
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,640
puts in the book is about these three

295
00:11:46,470 --> 00:11:44,560
operatives who are on the property one

296
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:46,480
night walking through the middle

297
00:11:51,910 --> 00:11:49,040
homestead and they run into in effect a

298
00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:51,920
cold front this really chilly uh area

299
00:11:55,509 --> 00:11:53,760
where the temperature drops about 20

300
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:55,519
degrees right in the middle homestead

301
00:11:59,350 --> 00:11:57,680
they back off for a while and then they

302
00:12:01,030 --> 00:11:59,360
walk forward again

303
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:01,040
and through infrared they see this

304
00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:03,440
gigantic oval of black i mean blacker

305
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:05,760
than the sky blacker than anything could

306
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:08,480
be seen and they got a fearing feeling

307
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:11,519
of menace out of there and uh in essence

308
00:12:15,829 --> 00:12:13,519
they froze for a while they

309
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:15,839
uh backed off they were frightened way

310
00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:17,440
out of proportion to what they should

311
00:12:21,509 --> 00:12:19,360
have been given that their experience

312
00:12:23,590 --> 00:12:21,519
and and bravery in the first place and

313
00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:23,600
then all three of them carry it at home

314
00:12:28,230 --> 00:12:26,320
with them they they get home and this

315
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:28,240
thing starts spreading sort of like a

316
00:12:33,829 --> 00:12:31,440
virus which is a column specialty but it

317
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:33,839
uh goes from the people who were on the

318
00:12:36,949 --> 00:12:36,000
ranch to their family to their family's

319
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:36,959
friends

320
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:40,079
uh strange apparitions crypto creatures

321
00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:42,320
poltergeist type activity

322
00:12:45,509 --> 00:12:44,000
we're not making this stuff up it

323
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:45,519
happened to a lot of the people who went

324
00:12:49,269 --> 00:12:47,760
on the ranch and it happened to me and

325
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:49,279
also to mr biglow and i don't know if

326
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:51,360
colin wants to share his experiences or

327
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:52,399
not and again

328
00:12:56,790 --> 00:12:54,240
i never saw anything on the ranch that i

329
00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:56,800
would consider to be anomalistic uh or

330
00:13:01,190 --> 00:12:59,440
paranormal or supernatural but i tried

331
00:13:03,509 --> 00:13:01,200
you know i went there a couple dozen

332
00:13:06,150 --> 00:13:03,519
times and i would bring little things

333
00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:06,160
home i'd bring bits of rock and and

334
00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:08,480
wreckage from the homesteads and tried

335
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:10,000
to engage with it

336
00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:11,839
but i still never saw anything my wife

337
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:13,600
however did and i i don't want to go

338
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:15,200
into a lot of details but it started

339
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:16,800
with these blue orbs that were over our

340
00:13:19,509 --> 00:13:17,680
house

341
00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:19,519
and then something that came into our

342
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:21,920
bedroom and was a very harrowing

343
00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:23,519
experience but

344
00:13:28,069 --> 00:13:25,760
we can't exactly explain the mechanism

345
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,079
of how that happens or what it is that

346
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:30,720
attaches to people but it happens uh

347
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:32,320
column has some better stories than i do

348
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:38,949
um well i i can i can certainly attest

349
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:40,800
to um

350
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:44,320
going back all the way you know to 1996

351
00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:45,440
um

352
00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:48,480
we did we did occasionally uh when we

353
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:50,560
first joined uh national institute for

354
00:13:56,310 --> 00:13:52,560
discovery science

355
00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:56,320
in uh june uh or june of 1996

356
00:13:59,829 --> 00:13:58,240
um that was around the same time that

357
00:14:02,949 --> 00:13:59,839
robert bigelow had purchased the

358
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:02,959
skinwalker ranch and so we were deployed

359
00:14:07,430 --> 00:14:04,959
as scientific personnel

360
00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:07,440
to sort of co-locate with sensors up

361
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:10,240
there to see what we could see in in

362
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:12,639
terms of both validating the sensors and

363
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:15,040
the sensors would validate us

364
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:18,720
but quickly it became obvious

365
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:20,560
you know when i we when when i would

366
00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:22,800
come home after five

367
00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:24,560
five days or a couple of weeks on the

368
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:26,639
ranch that some stuff would be

369
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:29,120
noticeable in the house

370
00:14:33,189 --> 00:14:31,279
you know my wife would would uh

371
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:33,199
would you know describe some stuff in

372
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:35,760
the house but it never reached the same

373
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:38,160
level of sort of

374
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:40,079
uh what what you guys have called

375
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:41,920
harrowing experiences

376
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:45,360
my experience of it was was was fairly

377
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:46,639
low-key

378
00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:49,760
but you know as george also mentioned um

379
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:52,720
every single military intelligence

380
00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:53,920
officer

381
00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:55,920
who was on that ranch

382
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:58,079
uh brought something home with them

383
00:15:01,509 --> 00:15:00,240
having experienced something on the

384
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:01,519
property so

385
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:03,519
normally my experience having spent

386
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:06,720
maybe 300 plus days on skin walker ranch

387
00:15:12,069 --> 00:15:09,519
um is that it's the exception rather

388
00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:12,079
than the rule to experience anything but

389
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:14,560
it was really note noteworthy that all

390
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:16,160
five of these

391
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:18,959
uh military intelligence people from the

392
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:21,680
navy from the army uh you know from

393
00:15:26,790 --> 00:15:24,079
different different organizations

394
00:15:29,829 --> 00:15:26,800
all five of them experienced um stuff on

395
00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:29,839
the ranch and secondly all five of them

396
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:32,560
brought a hitchhiker or whatever that is

397
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:34,800
uh home in that

398
00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:37,680
3000 miles away on the east coast their

399
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:39,279
homes became

400
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:41,360
the equivalent of a paranormal

401
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:44,480
disneyland and where where dark shadows

402
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:45,600
were sort of

403
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:48,399
um appearing in their bedroom orbs of

404
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:50,240
various colors would be floating around

405
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:52,720
the house black cubes would suddenly

406
00:15:57,749 --> 00:15:55,120
appear heavy footsteps would appear on

407
00:15:59,990 --> 00:15:57,759
the you know be heard on the stairs

408
00:16:02,389 --> 00:16:00,000
people would rush out to see what was

409
00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:02,399
going on and nobody was there that

410
00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:04,079
became commonplace

411
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:06,639
in the homes of all five people and

412
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:08,160
notably it was the families who

413
00:16:11,509 --> 00:16:10,079
experienced it

414
00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:11,519
something that i struggled to get my

415
00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:14,320
head around calm as with so much of this

416
00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:16,639
phenomenon being experienced in those

417
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:18,160
ways you're talking about

418
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:19,519
and you're talking about intelligence

419
00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:22,160
officials seeing black you know portals

420
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:24,959
for lack of a better word opening up and

421
00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:27,440
why is the us government happy to give

422
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:30,079
up control of such a place to the point

423
00:16:33,990 --> 00:16:32,000
that's now on tv on the history channel

424
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:34,000
under the the you know ownership of

425
00:16:39,749 --> 00:16:38,560
brandon fugle well to be honest um you

426
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:39,759
know

427
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:42,399
i think it would take a very

428
00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:44,240
hardened uh

429
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:47,440
sort of open-minded person in the u.s

430
00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:50,320
government to be able to talk and brief

431
00:16:55,509 --> 00:16:52,160
the senate intelligence committee

432
00:16:58,629 --> 00:16:55,519
staffers and uh and senators

433
00:17:01,430 --> 00:16:58,639
on what essentially was was a litany of

434
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:01,440
halloween kind of of weirdness

435
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:03,120
um it would

436
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:05,839
it would be a very difficult thing to do

437
00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:06,799
um

438
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:09,839
to be taken seriously so i i have a

439
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:12,559
certain amount of sympathy with the the

440
00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:15,520
um the softly softly approach which is

441
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:16,799
essentially

442
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:19,679
stick to the nuts and bolts

443
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:22,400
part of this and that's exactly what the

444
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:26,640
uap task force has been sort of moving

445
00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:28,880
through the various senate intelligence

446
00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:33,600
committees etc um in order to establish

447
00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:35,520
a beachhead in the in the united states

448
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:37,840
government i i have a lot of sympathy

449
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:40,640
with with that whole approach because

450
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:44,240
um we were very very lucky at asap to be

451
00:17:49,029 --> 00:17:47,600
given the green light to essentially

452
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:49,039
approach this from an umbrella

453
00:17:53,430 --> 00:17:51,280
perspective that was very very rare i

454
00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:53,440
mean if you go back in history you look

455
00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:56,080
at project sign project grudge project

456
00:18:01,029 --> 00:17:57,760
blue book

457
00:18:03,430 --> 00:18:01,039
none of these programs really had the

458
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:03,440
terms of reference that the asap program

459
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:05,840
had and none of them became quite as

460
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:06,799
large

461
00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:10,400
or quite as as all-embracing as the asap

462
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:13,280
program so in our opinion the asap

463
00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:15,200
program is probably

464
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:17,200
a unique template

465
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:20,160
upon which maybe a future program could

466
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:24,080
be structured but you know as i said

467
00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:26,400
one step at a time and i i do have a lot

468
00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:28,160
of sympathy with that concept of one

469
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:29,440
step at a time

470
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:31,919
let me add andy you know this is the the

471
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:34,080
brilliance of the asap approach is that

472
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:35,520
they were going to follow the evidence

473
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:37,760
wherever it led however weird it might

474
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:41,120
seem you know the dia if they they the

475
00:18:45,510 --> 00:18:43,280
it was highly unlikely dia would ever

476
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:45,520
assign its own personnel other than jim

477
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:48,000
lakatsky to investigate something so

478
00:18:52,310 --> 00:18:50,080
weird it would be cut off in a minute

479
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:52,320
that was part of the challenge for bass

480
00:18:55,750 --> 00:18:54,320
is you know it is keeping this in a

481
00:18:57,669 --> 00:18:55,760
stove pipe so that the rest of the

482
00:18:59,270 --> 00:18:57,679
pentagon didn't find out exactly what

483
00:19:00,710 --> 00:18:59,280
they were going because there would be

484
00:19:01,830 --> 00:19:00,720
hell to pay people would say it's

485
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:01,840
ridiculous

486
00:19:05,830 --> 00:19:03,760
even though they don't know what the uh

487
00:19:07,510 --> 00:19:05,840
what the focus of the study was in order

488
00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:07,520
to understand this mystery you have to

489
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,360
follow the evidence where it leads and

490
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:11,520
all previous ufo studies around the

491
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:13,200
world would only look at as colin

492
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:15,760
mentions the nuts and bolts of ufos do

493
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:18,080
we have radar visuals do we have meta

494
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:20,080
materials from crashes that kind of

495
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:21,760
thing which is strange enough in itself

496
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:24,400
to the general public to suggest that a

497
00:19:29,029 --> 00:19:26,000
government-funded program should

498
00:19:32,070 --> 00:19:29,039
investigate poltergeist type activity um

499
00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:32,080
the sighting of bipedal wolves um they'd

500
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:33,840
laugh you out of the you couldn't have a

501
00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:35,600
senate hearing about that they'd laugh

502
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:37,280
you out of the out of the senate hearing

503
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:40,320
room i asked lou elizondo in 2018 the

504
00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:42,960
spring of 2018 after

505
00:19:47,029 --> 00:19:44,480
i had released some of the details about

506
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:47,039
the awesome and some news stories i

507
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:49,679
asked him about awesapp and he i'll dig

508
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:51,120
up those clips and share them for you

509
00:19:56,230 --> 00:19:53,440
some with you sometime but can you solve

510
00:19:58,390 --> 00:19:56,240
this mystery by only looking at military

511
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:58,400
encounters radar sightings things of

512
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:01,039
that sort and he said no but you have to

513
00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:03,520
do what is possible to do and

514
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:04,559
atip

515
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:07,919
in in part carried on the study

516
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:09,840
at a very limited scope because that

517
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:11,440
what was doable that's what they could

518
00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:13,679
get away with that's what the uap task

519
00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:15,280
force or whatever its successor is going

520
00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:18,400
to be could do no politician is going to

521
00:20:23,110 --> 00:20:20,880
fund poltergeist research or looking

522
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:23,120
into werewolves they would be willing to

523
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:24,480
look at the national security

524
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,640
implications of unknown craft entering

525
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:28,559
our airspace so it was both the

526
00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:30,480
brilliance of asap to be willing to

527
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:32,240
follow the evidence where it leads and

528
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:34,480
also its biggest challenge

529
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:36,240
it almost seems like asap was ahead of

530
00:20:39,669 --> 00:20:37,600
its time and should have been the

531
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:39,679
follow-on investigations as opposed to

532
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:42,000
taking the step back almost the atip

533
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:43,120
became

534
00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:44,640
george you just released a brilliant

535
00:20:48,789 --> 00:20:46,400
interview with jack valley on the

536
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:48,799
trinity crash and on the follow-up

537
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:50,960
conversation jacques mentioned how the

538
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:53,280
third phase of what became ossap would

539
00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:54,880
have been the implementation of

540
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:57,840
artificial intelligence to truly analyze

541
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:59,760
and make sense of the data that was

542
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:00,720
gathered

543
00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:03,679
now calm and george how would ai have

544
00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:06,000
helped them and helped you and your

545
00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:08,960
investigations on the ranch

546
00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:10,240
well

547
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:12,640
the beauty of the of the osap data

548
00:21:19,029 --> 00:21:15,520
warehouse was number one it was modular

549
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:19,039
so there was 11 separate databases

550
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:22,400
you know tucked under the the general uh

551
00:21:27,430 --> 00:21:25,760
uh osap data warehouse some of those

552
00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:27,440
were where actually

553
00:21:29,669 --> 00:21:28,320
um

554
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:29,679
the

555
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:34,720
institute for discovery science had

556
00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:36,000
discovered

557
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:38,960
um that was one separate uh database

558
00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:41,360
that was part of the osap data warehouse

559
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:43,360
there were others in terms of the the

560
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:46,240
current boots on the ground uh

561
00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:48,559
investigations that assap itself was was

562
00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:50,720
discovering there was another database

563
00:21:54,789 --> 00:21:52,240
that pertained to

564
00:21:57,270 --> 00:21:54,799
all of the events that had happened both

565
00:21:59,029 --> 00:21:57,280
on skin worker ranch and in a 10 mile

566
00:22:01,830 --> 00:21:59,039
radius so

567
00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:01,840
the the the structure of the uh the way

568
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:04,400
uh the asop data warehouse was designed

569
00:22:08,950 --> 00:22:05,679
was to to

570
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:08,960
keep it extremely simple so that some

571
00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:12,559
kind of uh inter interrogatory layer

572
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:15,600
could be easily layered on top of the

573
00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:18,480
actual data itself and that's actually

574
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:20,720
what what we we have reason to believe

575
00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:22,720
that that's actually uh what has

576
00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:26,559
happened that um that uh somebody has

577
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:30,159
taken that extra step of layering the

578
00:22:37,029 --> 00:22:33,280
um the interrogatory layer which is the

579
00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:37,039
ai layer on on top of the data warehouse

580
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:38,799
now the the

581
00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:41,280
interesting part of this is is you know

582
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:43,520
as you know with any database

583
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:46,880
it is always garbage in garbage out

584
00:22:52,549 --> 00:22:50,720
so asap went to immense trouble

585
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:52,559
to try to scrub

586
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:55,760
every single case that went into

587
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:58,159
uh that actually passed quality control

588
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:01,200
so to speak and entered into uh these

589
00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:03,840
databases uh we could do we could do

590
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:06,320
some of that uh more than other others

591
00:23:11,830 --> 00:23:09,520
in terms of the the databases but we we

592
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:11,840
had a system and it was based on jacques

593
00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:14,480
valle's system where we would assign a

594
00:23:19,909 --> 00:23:17,440
numerical index of credibility to every

595
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:19,919
single case and every single case was

596
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:23,039
discussed in round table sessions where

597
00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:25,120
there were arguments back and forth

598
00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:27,840
where where you know this is a credible

599
00:23:33,830 --> 00:23:30,960
case this is a sign this number or or

600
00:23:35,830 --> 00:23:33,840
not so so you know we were trying to

601
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:35,840
eliminate the garbage in garbage out

602
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:38,480
because once you layer an ai

603
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:40,960
interrogatory layer on top of a data

604
00:23:47,510 --> 00:23:44,240
data warehouse it is completely

605
00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:47,520
automated and therefore it is completely

606
00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:50,880
by definition garbage in garbage out so

607
00:23:55,269 --> 00:23:53,520
a database is only as strong as its

608
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:55,279
weakest point

609
00:24:02,149 --> 00:23:58,240
you have to wonder andy where we would

610
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:02,159
be as a as a civilization as a world

611
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:03,760
if that program had been allowed to

612
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:06,240
continue they made so much progress in a

613
00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:08,400
little over two years in building the

614
00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:11,200
database and trying to figure out what

615
00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:13,440
to make sense of what was what was worth

616
00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:14,960
pursuing and what wasn't in

617
00:24:18,789 --> 00:24:16,559
understanding the totality of the

618
00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:18,799
phenomena not just things that fly

619
00:24:22,149 --> 00:24:20,880
around in the sky you have to follow the

620
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:22,159
evidence where it leads that's what

621
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:24,080
these guys did and no other program in

622
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:25,760
history has done it if it had been

623
00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:27,600
allowed to continue now and it was still

624
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:31,039
underway 10 11 12 years later my gosh we

625
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:32,640
might have figured this stuff out by now

626
00:24:38,390 --> 00:24:35,440
but it wasn't it was killed uh worse i

627
00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:38,400
think we're all collectively uh grateful

628
00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:41,200
that atep carried on and was able to to

629
00:24:47,909 --> 00:24:43,919
study things in that particular venue of

630
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:47,919
ufo nuts and bolts but gosh if if atep

631
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:49,919
and ossap had been allowed to continue

632
00:24:55,110 --> 00:24:53,279
on and on corollary paths uh we might be

633
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:55,120
able to figure this stuff out by now but

634
00:24:58,950 --> 00:24:56,880
that's not what happened

635
00:25:01,110 --> 00:24:58,960
do you think george the best way forward

636
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:01,120
for this investigation would be that it

637
00:25:05,269 --> 00:25:02,960
emerges again that

638
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:05,279
we have what whatever comes of these

639
00:25:09,029 --> 00:25:07,279
senate bills going through they start to

640
00:25:10,950 --> 00:25:09,039
look at places like skinwalker ranch

641
00:25:12,149 --> 00:25:10,960
again or do you think that's far too far

642
00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:12,159
down the line

643
00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:13,840
i think that that's not not going to

644
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:15,520
happen not in the current political

645
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:18,080
environment environment it's it's great

646
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:20,400
that we now have bipartisan agreement so

647
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:22,720
far that this research should be allowed

648
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:24,080
to continue and that some kind of

649
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:25,840
program is going to come out of this

650
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:27,679
legislation that's being considered now

651
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,120
that's terrific

652
00:25:32,789 --> 00:25:31,360
you gotta deal politics is the art of

653
00:25:35,029 --> 00:25:32,799
the possible you know and that's

654
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:35,039
probably what's possible and and that

655
00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:36,880
you know since the new york times story

656
00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:40,159
came out december 2017 it's politically

657
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:42,720
viable for elected officials to come

658
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:44,799
forward and say i support this kind of

659
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:47,039
research but if you that's for

660
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:49,200
researching things in the sky that might

661
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:51,120
be a threat to national security or the

662
00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:54,000
aviation safety it's another matter

663
00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:56,240
for a politician to say i agree with

664
00:26:00,230 --> 00:25:58,480
spending money to investigate places

665
00:26:02,630 --> 00:26:00,240
like skinwalker ranch with spooky

666
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:02,640
stories of boogeymen and and werewolves

667
00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:05,279
uh they'd be crucified so i i don't see

668
00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:06,880
that it's likely that

669
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:08,640
whatever this new program is going to be

670
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:10,720
that it will be allowed to pursue that

671
00:26:15,909 --> 00:26:13,520
it's not politically viable i guess we

672
00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:15,919
have to be happy with just you know the

673
00:26:20,310 --> 00:26:17,919
the slice of the phenomena that they

674
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:20,320
they will be able to investigate but if

675
00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:21,600
you're ever going to figure this out you

676
00:26:25,430 --> 00:26:22,960
got to look at the big picture

677
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:25,440
ufologists who are they have no

678
00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:27,279
restraints political restraints on what

679
00:26:31,510 --> 00:26:29,520
they can investigate but ufologists for

680
00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:31,520
years they don't they're not comfortable

681
00:26:35,029 --> 00:26:33,520
uh with the story of a spaceship that's

682
00:26:37,269 --> 00:26:35,039
landed on the ground and bigfoot

683
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:37,279
standing next to it they hate that they

684
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:39,120
discard those kind of of stories they

685
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:42,000
don't like having poltergeist activity

686
00:26:46,390 --> 00:26:44,400
at the homes of ufo witnesses nobody's

687
00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:46,400
comfortable with that the poltergeist

688
00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:48,000
people hate the ufologists the

689
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:50,000
ufologists hate the bigfoot people and

690
00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:52,080
that's that whole situation's a mess but

691
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:54,240
the fact is it happens it's always

692
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:55,919
happened those kind of things have

693
00:26:59,029 --> 00:26:57,520
always been

694
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:59,039
associated with each other whether

695
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:00,960
everybody anybody wants to admit it or

696
00:27:04,710 --> 00:27:03,039
not you have to look at the big picture

697
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:04,720
and i think it's unlikely that the big

698
00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:06,400
picture is ever going to be investigated

699
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:08,320
in the way that asap did

700
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,080
well speaking of those very in fact

701
00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:12,000
various factions and how they interact

702
00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:13,760
or don't interact with each other the

703
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:15,440
data warehouse that you've both

704
00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:17,279
mentioned is currently used by the us

705
00:27:22,070 --> 00:27:19,600
government are other countries using

706
00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:22,080
this too for example would the uk who is

707
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:24,320
our five eyes partner have access to the

708
00:27:28,389 --> 00:27:26,480
same data

709
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:28,399
well i would certainly hope that that is

710
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:30,880
the case in the future as as things

711
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:33,600
evolve but you know as as george is

712
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:36,080
saying we're in a very political

713
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:38,480
politically fractious time

714
00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:41,760
and um you know i think that the uap

715
00:27:47,909 --> 00:27:44,399
task force is doing a great job and

716
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:47,919
moving things forward slowly but um i i

717
00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:51,039
would see um hopefully in the future

718
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:52,559
that there would be some

719
00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:54,640
uh reaching out to different countries

720
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:55,520
because

721
00:28:00,230 --> 00:27:57,919
uh different countries have a wealth of

722
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:00,240
different information asap actually

723
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:04,240
began to tap into some of those uh you

724
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:06,720
know different countries uh what they

725
00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:09,520
have released publicly uh we interacted

726
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:12,640
with brazil we interacted with the uk we

727
00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:15,760
we got some of the mod files that the uk

728
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:18,320
had had downloaded

729
00:28:24,389 --> 00:28:22,000
it for the public so all of that has has

730
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:24,399
once you put everything into a single

731
00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:27,760
database you have a global viewpoint so

732
00:28:32,789 --> 00:28:31,200
i think the more sharing the better

733
00:28:34,789 --> 00:28:32,799
and george do you have any colleagues

734
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:34,799
across the pond here from a journalist

735
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:36,640
point of view who have an interest in

736
00:28:41,029 --> 00:28:39,039
what's going on

737
00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:41,039
well everybody's interested i think

738
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:42,640
they're interested in different levels

739
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:45,600
of interest who uh they want the quick

740
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:48,480
score of a a story that makes headlines

741
00:28:51,909 --> 00:28:49,200
and

742
00:28:54,230 --> 00:28:51,919
in tabloids or in a paranormal sense but

743
00:28:56,870 --> 00:28:54,240
i'm not sure that there's anyone

744
00:28:59,110 --> 00:28:56,880
journalistically who's digging into the

745
00:29:01,909 --> 00:28:59,120
with the same depth and breadth uh into

746
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:01,919
the topic as as what asap did or what we

747
00:29:05,909 --> 00:29:03,840
column and i and jim mccatsky have been

748
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:05,919
doing since the book came out

749
00:29:10,789 --> 00:29:08,240
now yeah we've got a few journalists uh

750
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:10,799
through uap media uk we've tried to set

751
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:12,880
up with various different stories or

752
00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:14,320
things they could go after and they all

753
00:29:18,470 --> 00:29:16,080
tend to put the same content into their

754
00:29:21,029 --> 00:29:18,480
stories where the phrase alien hunters

755
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:21,039
tends to come up regularly so it all it

756
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:22,640
ends up i think you said the phrase

757
00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:24,960
earlier calm garbage and garbage out was

758
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:26,720
the the phrase so that's 10 to what

759
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:28,799
happened here in the uk i want to go

760
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:30,240
back to something that you did mention

761
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:31,520
earlier though and that was the

762
00:29:36,149 --> 00:29:33,200
biological studies

763
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:36,159
is there dna data in that data warehouse

764
00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:38,240
and are there any common markers that

765
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:41,440
has been noticed between experiences

766
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:44,320
well that that's a that's a very sort of

767
00:29:48,389 --> 00:29:45,679
um

768
00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:48,399
you i i'd say in order to answer that

769
00:29:52,149 --> 00:29:50,080
question we would definitely have to

770
00:29:53,350 --> 00:29:52,159
have to back up because

771
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:53,360
um

772
00:29:59,669 --> 00:29:54,559
the

773
00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:59,679
24 to 27 month period that asap was in

774
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:00,960
existence

775
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:04,880
was a very um it was a very compressed

776
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:07,360
uh program in that

777
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:09,919
we had to actually create the security

778
00:30:14,669 --> 00:30:13,120
infrastructure we had to hire you know

779
00:30:16,630 --> 00:30:14,679
50 people

780
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:16,640
multi-disciplinary teams including

781
00:30:20,389 --> 00:30:19,600
physician scientists and and scientists

782
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:20,399
so

783
00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:24,559
chemistry

784
00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:29,600
for

785
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:34,240
sample analysis done we had to

786
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:36,880
hire a whole bunch of uh retired law

787
00:30:39,909 --> 00:30:39,120
enforcement officers in order to be able

788
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:39,919
to

789
00:30:47,909 --> 00:30:45,600
that was collected at these scenes so

790
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:47,919
some of the some of the

791
00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:50,640
samples that were obtained were things

792
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:52,559
like hair samples

793
00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:54,240
that were found

794
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:57,360
in unusual places

795
00:31:03,430 --> 00:30:59,840
objects that were picked up at alleged

796
00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:03,440
ufo crash sites etc around the world um

797
00:31:06,549 --> 00:31:04,799
so

798
00:31:07,909 --> 00:31:06,559
i guess the short answer to your

799
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:07,919
question is

800
00:31:13,669 --> 00:31:12,159
yes there were some um dna analysis done

801
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:13,679
um

802
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:16,960
we did not find a smoking gun in that

803
00:31:21,990 --> 00:31:19,200
with the short amount of time that we

804
00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:22,000
had the 27-month period that we had we

805
00:31:27,110 --> 00:31:23,919
had all of the

806
00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:27,120
uh the dna labs contracted and we did

807
00:31:32,149 --> 00:31:30,159
have some preliminary dna analysis but

808
00:31:34,549 --> 00:31:32,159
there's no way i would stand behind that

809
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:34,559
as saying that this is uh this was a

810
00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:36,640
smoking gun but

811
00:31:41,509 --> 00:31:38,480
the key here was that we had the

812
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:41,519
procedures in place we had the templates

813
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:44,320
in place and we had the analytical

814
00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:51,350
sure no that's that's fine i was going

815
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:53,039
to follow up and just ask that something

816
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:55,200
that's been mentioned recently by luis

817
00:31:59,909 --> 00:31:57,360
elizondo on his interview with cut joy

818
00:32:03,029 --> 00:31:59,919
mungo he stated that there is evidence

819
00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:03,039
of occupants inside of craft do either

820
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:04,720
of you have an idea of what sort of

821
00:32:09,269 --> 00:32:06,960
footage luis elizondo may be referring

822
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:09,279
to and have you seen a photograph or

823
00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:10,799
video deemed legitimate that would

824
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:13,120
appear to show occupants inside of craft

825
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:14,559
whether that was part of skinwalker

826
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:17,760
ranch and or sap or not

827
00:32:22,389 --> 00:32:19,760
i haven't

828
00:32:25,750 --> 00:32:22,399
i i i would refer that question to lou

829
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:25,760
elizondo but i have not uh seen

830
00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:27,760
uh the evidence that he's seen i have

831
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,720
not conversed with him about it either

832
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:32,640
was there ever any footage obtained

833
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:35,120
through the the study over the 24 months

834
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:37,279
that you would deem as being

835
00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:39,600
of high fidelity you know high quality

836
00:32:43,269 --> 00:32:41,440
footage that we maybe don't see in

837
00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:43,279
official releases

838
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:46,159
i think if you if you combine um both

839
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:50,240
the asap and the atip um operations

840
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:51,200
um

841
00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:56,480
all of what was happening uh with

842
00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:58,399
military pilots

843
00:33:02,710 --> 00:33:00,559
and what was happening on the carrier

844
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:02,720
strike groups on both the east and west

845
00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:03,760
coasts

846
00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:06,000
um a lot of that a lot of footage was

847
00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:08,399
obtained uh there was some footage

848
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:11,760
obtained uh during the assaf program but

849
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:14,000
again i would hesitate to call that

850
00:33:19,029 --> 00:33:15,440
smoking gun

851
00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:19,039
um i i believe that the the asap program

852
00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:21,600
should have run for five to ten years at

853
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:22,480
least

854
00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:24,640
and that it should have it was designed

855
00:33:29,430 --> 00:33:26,320
actually to expand

856
00:33:32,230 --> 00:33:29,440
um beyond that first two years however

857
00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:32,240
uh because of congressional issues

858
00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:34,960
because of politics because of a whole a

859
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:36,720
whole variety of things

860
00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:39,200
essentially coalesce to shut the program

861
00:33:41,509 --> 00:33:40,000
down

862
00:33:44,549 --> 00:33:41,519
um

863
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:44,559
i would say asap did not discover a

864
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:46,080
smoking gun

865
00:33:50,789 --> 00:33:49,679
um but it it it has a lot of it did have

866
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:50,799
a lot of

867
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:53,360
very interesting compelling data

868
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:56,640
but i should remind you uh andy tictac

869
00:34:00,870 --> 00:33:58,480
maybe the most significant case the most

870
00:34:03,190 --> 00:34:00,880
significant ufo footage given how it was

871
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,200
used by the new york times and others

872
00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:05,440
since it came out that was that was

873
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:07,440
awesome that was an a-tip that was

874
00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:10,320
pursued by awesapp it uh it came walking

875
00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:12,159
in the door in the form of a guy named

876
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:15,200
doug kurth who was the first employee

877
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:18,240
uh uh hire uh by hired by column

878
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:20,159
kelleher and i guess column could tell

879
00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:22,320
the story of how they found out about

880
00:34:27,829 --> 00:34:25,119
tic-tac but that tic-tac came out asap

881
00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:27,839
uh atip ran with it later but it was an

882
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:29,679
awesome baby column you could tell that

883
00:34:34,629 --> 00:34:32,639
story maybe yeah i mean i

884
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:34,639
as i mentioned you know we we were going

885
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:37,760
through this process of rapidly hiring a

886
00:34:41,589 --> 00:34:39,760
team and one of the first things we

887
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:41,599
needed to do was hire some really good

888
00:34:46,069 --> 00:34:43,200
program managers

889
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:46,079
so this uh this kernel from the the

890
00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:47,440
marine corps

891
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:50,240
uh walked in uh pilot

892
00:34:54,550 --> 00:34:52,399
um and within 10 minutes of the

893
00:34:57,030 --> 00:34:54,560
interview i you know i knew i was going

894
00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:57,040
to hire this guy because he had all of

895
00:35:01,670 --> 00:34:59,280
the experience and he had

896
00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:01,680
also had a really good demeanor

897
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:04,000
but at the end of the con conversation

898
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:06,000
he essentially dropped a bombshell that

899
00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:07,680
he had been part of

900
00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:10,960
uh a carrier strike group off the the

901
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:14,480
coast of san diego in 2004 and this was

902
00:35:19,349 --> 00:35:17,040
this interview happened in december 2008

903
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:19,359
so it was four years after the actual

904
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:20,880
event it happened

905
00:35:25,670 --> 00:35:23,200
and he he went through the whole process

906
00:35:28,710 --> 00:35:25,680
of you know he had been targeted to this

907
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:28,720
area and that other f-18s had been

908
00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:31,359
targeted from the the nimitz carrier

909
00:35:35,349 --> 00:35:32,560
strike group

910
00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:35,359
um and and they had visual observations

911
00:35:41,349 --> 00:35:39,200
of this 46 foot long uh tic tac shape

912
00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:41,359
object that was doing impossible

913
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:43,200
maneuvers

914
00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:46,320
but it was colonel kurth who actually

915
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:49,119
uh told me about this case and it was

916
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:51,839
not a as a as a prerequisite of hiring

917
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:53,920
him i'd already hired him when he

918
00:35:58,470 --> 00:35:56,160
actually dropped this bombshell so

919
00:36:01,270 --> 00:35:58,480
obviously the first thing i did was

920
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:01,280
um get him to write up a summary of of

921
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:03,520
this tic-tac case

922
00:36:09,510 --> 00:36:06,240
he wrote up a summary he even named a

923
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:09,520
set of uh primary eyewitnesses all of

924
00:36:15,589 --> 00:36:12,480
the pilots who had been involved in that

925
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:15,599
many of the uh operators radar operators

926
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:18,720
on the uss princeton uh were also named

927
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:19,520
so

928
00:36:25,109 --> 00:36:22,720
um we got immediately in touch with uh

929
00:36:28,870 --> 00:36:25,119
dr lukowski at defense intelligence

930
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:28,880
agency relayed this this conversation to

931
00:36:35,430 --> 00:36:32,480
him with the uh the list of of uh of

932
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:35,440
these primary observers and then

933
00:36:41,430 --> 00:36:38,320
jonathan axelrod we were calling him

934
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:41,440
jonathan axelrod in the book but axelrod

935
00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:44,079
then took the the bit in his mouth and

936
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:48,480
essentially had by july of 2009 had

937
00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:50,400
conducted the full

938
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:52,640
uh scope research

939
00:36:58,069 --> 00:36:55,839
uh had had um interrogated all of the

940
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:58,079
pilots interviewed all of the pilots all

941
00:37:01,750 --> 00:36:59,680
of the people on the

942
00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:01,760
uh the uss princeton who had been

943
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:03,760
involved in the tic tac case

944
00:37:09,510 --> 00:37:06,640
and and actually probably

945
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:09,520
by september of 2009

946
00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:12,960
a full report of the tic tac incident

947
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:14,720
had been submitted to the defense

948
00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:16,400
intelligence agency

949
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:19,359
as one of about 105 different

950
00:37:23,670 --> 00:37:22,240
deliverables that were were submitted to

951
00:37:25,990 --> 00:37:23,680
dia but

952
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:26,000
sort of eight years before the new york

953
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:28,880
times got its hand on this story defense

954
00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:31,520
intelligence agency had a very thorough

955
00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:35,040
report um of the uh of the tic tac

956
00:37:38,550 --> 00:37:37,760
incident it's a perfect example andy of

957
00:37:41,430 --> 00:37:38,560
how

958
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:41,440
asap and what became atip interacted in

959
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,920
those days asap was the official program

960
00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:45,599
it had a group of people

961
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:47,520
uh call them confederates they were not

962
00:37:52,310 --> 00:37:50,000
yet atip but people inside the pentagon

963
00:37:55,270 --> 00:37:52,320
and these agencies who were supportive

964
00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:55,280
of the asap effort and when asap

965
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:57,760
got the information those people in the

966
00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:59,599
pentagon

967
00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:01,599
went to work and produced a report that

968
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:04,800
ended up with dia and asap and uh that

969
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:06,960
was the example of how they worked at

970
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:09,200
the time there were supportive people

971
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:11,280
they had authorization to be working on

972
00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:13,680
this stuff but they kept it really quiet

973
00:38:17,109 --> 00:38:15,040
because they didn't want to attract

974
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:17,119
attention even within the pentagon

975
00:38:21,030 --> 00:38:19,440
because attention meant trouble

976
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:21,040
we've heard from various people like

977
00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:23,280
louis ondo christopher mellon that there

978
00:38:27,430 --> 00:38:25,040
are those within the pentagon who are

979
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:27,440
supportive like you say and who remain

980
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:28,480
anonymous

981
00:38:32,069 --> 00:38:30,560
do you think people like axelrod who

982
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:32,079
obviously like you've said it's a

983
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,000
pseudonym will come forward in the

984
00:38:42,069 --> 00:38:39,589
i i really um i

985
00:38:44,470 --> 00:38:42,079
i don't know uh i mean obviously coming

986
00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:44,480
forward in the future carries a lot of

987
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:49,680
baggage so uh my guess is probably no um

988
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:52,320
uh this guy is a very sort of

989
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:55,359
you know he's a well credentialed

990
00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:56,400
um

991
00:39:03,670 --> 00:39:01,280
i would doubt if he would have any

992
00:39:05,109 --> 00:39:03,680
motivation to come forward uh most of

993
00:39:06,069 --> 00:39:05,119
what he has done

994
00:39:07,349 --> 00:39:06,079
um

995
00:39:09,349 --> 00:39:07,359
are at least

996
00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:09,359
i would say over half of what he has

997
00:39:13,270 --> 00:39:11,520
done is in the book but there are there

998
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:13,280
is a lot of what he has done that's not

999
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:15,839
in the book so i would say i would doubt

1000
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,920
if he comes forward but who knows

1001
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:21,359
i've got a few more questions just

1002
00:39:25,270 --> 00:39:23,119
before we get to listener questions to

1003
00:39:27,349 --> 00:39:25,280
finish off and we'll just kind of fire

1004
00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:27,359
through these to make the most of it can

1005
00:39:31,430 --> 00:39:29,280
you speak to the possible relationship

1006
00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:31,440
between cattle mutilations and the food

1007
00:39:34,550 --> 00:39:32,880
chain if there was anything that was

1008
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:34,560
uncovered during your time

1009
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:36,480
in 2004

1010
00:39:41,589 --> 00:39:39,119
uh i wrote a book called brain trust

1011
00:39:43,349 --> 00:39:41,599
that that had to do with

1012
00:39:46,630 --> 00:39:43,359
the possibility

1013
00:39:49,670 --> 00:39:46,640
that there was a lot of um

1014
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:49,680
misdiagnosis going on between

1015
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:50,720
um

1016
00:39:55,349 --> 00:39:53,119
what then was termed matte cow disease

1017
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:55,359
and obviously the uk had more than its

1018
00:39:58,950 --> 00:39:57,520
own fair share of experience of mad cat

1019
00:40:02,230 --> 00:39:58,960
disease

1020
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:02,240
also known as cjd that overlapped with

1021
00:40:08,390 --> 00:40:06,079
uh with diagnosis of alzheimer's disease

1022
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:08,400
bottom line is that in the united states

1023
00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:12,720
at least there was not a great

1024
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:15,440
motivator for doing a lot of testing by

1025
00:40:20,390 --> 00:40:18,160
the usda because the more you test it

1026
00:40:22,470 --> 00:40:20,400
the more cases you would find so

1027
00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:22,480
um there was a case uh there was a

1028
00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:24,960
situation in the united united states

1029
00:40:29,109 --> 00:40:25,760
where

1030
00:40:31,349 --> 00:40:29,119
a private company offered to do a whole

1031
00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:31,359
bunch of bsc uh

1032
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:33,920
mad cow disease prion testing

1033
00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:34,800
for

1034
00:40:39,190 --> 00:40:36,720
the united states government and they

1035
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:39,200
were essentially shut down because the

1036
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:41,920
united the usda did not want

1037
00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:43,040
to

1038
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:52,480
later here we are in 2021

1039
00:40:56,630 --> 00:40:55,040
we've got a massive epidemic

1040
00:41:01,589 --> 00:40:56,640
of dementia

1041
00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:01,599
that include alzheimer's disease lewy

1042
00:41:05,910 --> 00:41:03,280
body dementia

1043
00:41:08,069 --> 00:41:05,920
frontal temporal lobe dementia all the

1044
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:08,079
way across through the various prion

1045
00:41:11,270 --> 00:41:09,920
diseases

1046
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:11,280
and it is

1047
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:14,160
very very difficult to pin down exactly

1048
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:17,280
what the origin of these but there is

1049
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:21,920
um given that the you know the uk cases

1050
00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:25,119
of variant cjd that occurred in the uk

1051
00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:25,920
were

1052
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:28,160
basically the smoking gun

1053
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:31,040
for the hypothesis that what you eat

1054
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:34,400
will will affect what you uh what you

1055
00:41:39,829 --> 00:41:37,280
manifest in terms of pathology so there

1056
00:41:42,309 --> 00:41:39,839
is no doubt about it that there is a

1057
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:42,319
relationship between the food chain and

1058
00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:47,200
the um the genesis of uh dementia

1059
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:49,119
just to put it in a different sense a

1060
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:51,680
column's book concluded that it does

1061
00:41:55,990 --> 00:41:53,599
appear that somebody is

1062
00:41:57,349 --> 00:41:56,000
is monitoring the spread

1063
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:57,359
excuse me

1064
00:42:01,829 --> 00:41:59,760
someone is monitoring the spread of

1065
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:01,839
these diseases through our food chain

1066
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:03,760
and what we see as evidence of that is

1067
00:42:07,829 --> 00:42:06,000
mutilations and they the exotic

1068
00:42:10,550 --> 00:42:07,839
possibility is that it's maybe more than

1069
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:10,560
one someone that some human

1070
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:12,480
outfits or organizations

1071
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:14,800
are carving out cows hiding under the

1072
00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:17,200
umbrella of the weirdness surrounding

1073
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:18,960
cattle emulations to begin with but that

1074
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:21,520
someone else above that is also doing

1075
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:23,280
these these things and that's where the

1076
00:42:28,069 --> 00:42:24,960
origin of the phenomena

1077
00:42:30,309 --> 00:42:28,079
testing for what's in our food chain and

1078
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:30,319
what might create really bigger problems

1079
00:42:33,270 --> 00:42:31,760
down the road

1080
00:42:35,589 --> 00:42:33,280
no thanks for that follow-up george as

1081
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:35,599
well george are you aware of any

1082
00:42:40,069 --> 00:42:37,839
experimentation on the ranch with remote

1083
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:40,079
viewing and i would also ask calm to

1084
00:42:44,069 --> 00:42:41,599
follow up with that as well if there was

1085
00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:44,079
any experimentation with the same thing

1086
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:45,839
well i don't know if it was conducted i

1087
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:47,280
don't believe it was conducted actually

1088
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:48,880
on the ranch but yeah there was some

1089
00:42:52,630 --> 00:42:50,640
remote viewing exercises that were

1090
00:42:55,829 --> 00:42:52,640
directed at the ranch the book tells the

1091
00:42:58,550 --> 00:42:55,839
story of joe mcmonagle maybe the most

1092
00:43:00,710 --> 00:42:58,560
best known and most experienced remote

1093
00:43:02,470 --> 00:43:00,720
viewer in the world who was tasked with

1094
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:02,480
taking a look at the ranch

1095
00:43:07,510 --> 00:43:05,200
the diagrams that he drew during this

1096
00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:07,520
exercise not knowing other than just

1097
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:09,200
some random coordinates not knowing what

1098
00:43:14,309 --> 00:43:12,160
he was looking at and improved eerily

1099
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:14,319
accurate uh to take a look at it and

1100
00:43:18,390 --> 00:43:16,480
there were some other uh remote viewing

1101
00:43:19,990 --> 00:43:18,400
uh exercises that we undertook when

1102
00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:20,000
column and i were working on the first

1103
00:43:25,030 --> 00:43:22,720
book hunt for the skinwalker we tasked a

1104
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:25,040
nevada group of remote viewers to take a

1105
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:26,880
look at it they came up with some pretty

1106
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:29,520
interesting uh uh ideas

1107
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:31,200
there was a military presence some sort

1108
00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:32,319
of a

1109
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:34,640
surveillance operation by military

1110
00:43:39,109 --> 00:43:36,880
personnel uh around the ranch taking a

1111
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:39,119
look at what's there and that's a that's

1112
00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:40,880
a door that remains open for me i think

1113
00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:42,480
that's still a possible that's a

1114
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:44,880
possible true outcome

1115
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:46,880
uh columbia has more details about the

1116
00:43:50,230 --> 00:43:48,720
remote viewing other than mcmonagle

1117
00:43:52,630 --> 00:43:50,240
column did anybody else take a look at

1118
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:52,640
the ranch for forbes uh you know the

1119
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:54,480
remote viewing program

1120
00:43:58,630 --> 00:43:56,560
uh was part of the

1121
00:44:01,430 --> 00:43:58,640
initial proposal that we met that we

1122
00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:01,440
made to the defense intelligence agency

1123
00:44:06,470 --> 00:44:04,480
and at the time the defense intelligence

1124
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:06,480
agency did tell us

1125
00:44:11,829 --> 00:44:09,200
uh that they did not want a full-fledged

1126
00:44:14,630 --> 00:44:11,839
program to go because it would be

1127
00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:14,640
way too time-consuming way too expensive

1128
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:17,440
but they did give us authorization to

1129
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:20,400
conduct pilot experiments one of which

1130
00:44:25,990 --> 00:44:23,760
was uh was the joe mcmonagle experiment

1131
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:26,000
on skin marker ranch which actually

1132
00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:28,000
turned out to be very

1133
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:30,800
um spectacular in terms of of what he

1134
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:31,920
came up with

1135
00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:34,240
over the years there there have been

1136
00:44:39,670 --> 00:44:36,400
several initiatives that have been aimed

1137
00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:39,680
at uh at skin worker ranch um from the

1138
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:42,720
remote viewing perspective

1139
00:44:45,589 --> 00:44:44,240
let's get into listener questions to

1140
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:45,599
make the most of the last part of the

1141
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:47,040
the show and again thank you both very

1142
00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:48,880
much for your time the first one comes

1143
00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:50,800
from my own co-host dan

1144
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:53,200
and dan wants to know has column been

1145
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:55,280
back to the ranch since brandon fuegle

1146
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:58,240
took over and any strange experiences

1147
00:45:02,230 --> 00:45:00,000
since he finished work with bass or

1148
00:45:04,710 --> 00:45:02,240
awesome

1149
00:45:06,470 --> 00:45:04,720
short answer to that is the last time i

1150
00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:06,480
was on the ranch was that photograph

1151
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,240
that was taken that's in the book of

1152
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:10,640
myself and george walking on the ranch

1153
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:11,920
um

1154
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:14,880
probably uh less than a week after or

1155
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:17,280
before brandon fugel took it over so the

1156
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:18,960
answer to that is no

1157
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:21,680
and um i've had i've i've had a a

1158
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:25,680
totally separate career since the um

1159
00:45:30,710 --> 00:45:28,560
since the asap program so i've i've been

1160
00:45:33,430 --> 00:45:30,720
immersed in aerospace

1161
00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:33,440
um at a pretty intense level of detail

1162
00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:37,920
so i haven't noticed any um anomalous

1163
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:40,960
um experiences actually since the end of

1164
00:45:44,710 --> 00:45:43,200
that asap program

1165
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:44,720
i'm sure you're grateful for that as

1166
00:45:49,030 --> 00:45:46,800
well um

1167
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:49,040
very much george george this one's for

1168
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:51,440
you from barry and he wants he says

1169
00:45:56,309 --> 00:45:53,520
george could you confirm if the meta

1170
00:45:57,670 --> 00:45:56,319
material known as the bar was found on

1171
00:45:59,270 --> 00:45:57,680
the site and what could you tell us

1172
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:59,280
about it

1173
00:46:03,270 --> 00:46:01,359
yeah this is back to the nids era there

1174
00:46:05,910 --> 00:46:03,280
were two i think there were two of these

1175
00:46:08,150 --> 00:46:05,920
strange black metallic looking objects

1176
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:08,160
that were found on the property and i

1177
00:46:11,670 --> 00:46:09,760
know there's been a lot of speculation

1178
00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:11,680
they must be alien metamaterials or

1179
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:13,119
something

1180
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:16,480
aliens had a shootout with security

1181
00:46:20,390 --> 00:46:18,640
guards on the property there is there is

1182
00:46:22,309 --> 00:46:20,400
nothing to that i i believe that i

1183
00:46:23,589 --> 00:46:22,319
didn't think the nids guys identified

1184
00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:23,599
those bars

1185
00:46:29,589 --> 00:46:26,560
as old batteries is that right column

1186
00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:29,599
yeah they were they were um

1187
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:31,119
1950s

1188
00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:34,319
era batteries that were associated with

1189
00:46:37,349 --> 00:46:35,680
some kind of

1190
00:46:39,109 --> 00:46:37,359
uh photography

1191
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:39,119
uh way back in the day they were they

1192
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:43,440
were pretty narrow diameter black um

1193
00:46:49,750 --> 00:46:46,400
black cylinders and we we located the

1194
00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:49,760
actual battery that they went into so uh

1195
00:46:52,710 --> 00:46:51,839
there was nothing mysterious

1196
00:46:53,829 --> 00:46:52,720
or

1197
00:46:55,589 --> 00:46:53,839
you know

1198
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:55,599
there was no nothing interesting about

1199
00:46:58,470 --> 00:46:56,480
them

1200
00:47:00,470 --> 00:46:58,480
we wish we wish it had been alien

1201
00:47:02,790 --> 00:47:00,480
metamaterials a little sample of

1202
00:47:04,390 --> 00:47:02,800
unobtainium but that's not the case

1203
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:04,400
i'll tell barry to get in touch with

1204
00:47:07,910 --> 00:47:06,400
duracell or energizer to follow up on

1205
00:47:09,910 --> 00:47:07,920
that one then

1206
00:47:11,990 --> 00:47:09,920
the next question is from bikier and

1207
00:47:14,069 --> 00:47:12,000
bakir this is for both of you wants to

1208
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:14,079
know how have your views on the

1209
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:16,319
phenomenon changed since your days

1210
00:47:21,109 --> 00:47:18,480
investigating skinwalker ranch under

1211
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:23,349
well i know mine have changed

1212
00:47:29,670 --> 00:47:25,520
drastically you know when i entered the

1213
00:47:31,510 --> 00:47:29,680
ufo field in 1980 the late 80s uh the

1214
00:47:33,109 --> 00:47:31,520
prevailing paradigm at the time were

1215
00:47:35,109 --> 00:47:33,119
these things that we're seeing in the

1216
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:35,119
sky are craft from another world these

1217
00:47:39,910 --> 00:47:37,680
are et visitors coming here to check us

1218
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:39,920
out to take samples to carve up some

1219
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:42,480
cows and that's the explanation and

1220
00:47:45,990 --> 00:47:43,760
maybe that's still part of the

1221
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:46,000
explanation but after getting to know

1222
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:48,800
column and being allowed by mr bigelow

1223
00:47:53,589 --> 00:47:51,119
to be on the ranch and to hear from

1224
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:53,599
witnesses to investigate that stuff

1225
00:47:57,990 --> 00:47:56,640
it flipped everything upside down um you

1226
00:47:59,510 --> 00:47:58,000
know we have to be open to the

1227
00:48:01,750 --> 00:47:59,520
possibility that whatever is happening

1228
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:01,760
there might be extraterrestrial but it's

1229
00:48:05,589 --> 00:48:03,839
not consistent with what we think we

1230
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:05,599
know about extraterrestrials around the

1231
00:48:09,430 --> 00:48:08,400
world this is something else this is uh

1232
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:09,440
all this

1233
00:48:13,829 --> 00:48:12,160
weird stuff strange phenomena seemingly

1234
00:48:15,910 --> 00:48:13,839
unrelated

1235
00:48:18,870 --> 00:48:15,920
poltergeists crypto creatures crop

1236
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:18,880
circles uh you know uh

1237
00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:21,119
all that stuff all happening in the same

1238
00:48:25,430 --> 00:48:23,359
place and it column and i concluded in

1239
00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:25,440
the first book that it sure seems like

1240
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:27,440
this is different versions of the same

1241
00:48:31,829 --> 00:48:29,760
thing and it's trying to tell us that

1242
00:48:33,349 --> 00:48:31,839
reality is far different from what we

1243
00:48:34,390 --> 00:48:33,359
thought it was the reality isn't the

1244
00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:34,400
same anymore

1245
00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:35,839
that this is telling us that the

1246
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:39,200
universe is a much more mystical magical

1247
00:48:42,430 --> 00:48:41,040
complicated place than what we thought

1248
00:48:44,470 --> 00:48:42,440
of and that

1249
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:44,480
extraterrestrials visiting earth once in

1250
00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:47,200
a while just isn't an explanation that

1251
00:48:51,190 --> 00:48:48,880
works for all the strange stuff we are

1252
00:48:53,589 --> 00:48:51,200
seeing at skinwalker ranch and around

1253
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:53,599
the world so yeah it's direct directly

1254
00:48:58,950 --> 00:48:56,640
challenged by my previous views

1255
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:58,960
the idea that this is a an intelligence

1256
00:49:03,030 --> 00:49:00,800
that is not from somewhere else but it

1257
00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:03,040
lives here and it's always been here

1258
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:05,280
interacting with humanity since the

1259
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:07,680
beginning and maybe it was here before

1260
00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:14,870
yeah i i my my take on this for the uh

1261
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:17,440
for the bass program or the asap program

1262
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:18,559
was that

1263
00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:19,440
um

1264
00:49:25,109 --> 00:49:22,240
i think the take home after all of the

1265
00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:25,119
data was accumulated and analyzed

1266
00:49:31,109 --> 00:49:26,880
was that the

1267
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:31,119
um the intermeshing of of human effects

1268
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:32,960
with the nuts and bolts

1269
00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:35,040
um

1270
00:49:39,030 --> 00:49:36,800
you know direction

1271
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:39,040
was the right one to take and i've

1272
00:49:43,190 --> 00:49:40,559
become more and more

1273
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:43,200
convinced that the human effects part of

1274
00:49:49,270 --> 00:49:46,000
the ufo phenomenon is is what needs to

1275
00:49:50,069 --> 00:49:49,280
be explored um you know go by going back

1276
00:49:52,549 --> 00:49:50,079
to

1277
00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:52,559
kenneth arnold's book in uh that he

1278
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:56,400
wrote regarding his original june 1947

1279
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:57,680
experience

1280
00:50:02,790 --> 00:49:59,839
and then listening to what his daughter

1281
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:02,800
said about ken arnold's experience

1282
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:03,680
um

1283
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:05,680
you know that the the sort of nuts and

1284
00:50:10,549 --> 00:50:08,160
bolts craft that he saw the nine the

1285
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:10,559
nine objects going down through near the

1286
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:15,520
cascade mountains in washington um

1287
00:50:20,589 --> 00:50:18,000
i think in retrospect

1288
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:20,599
kenneth arnold had a much more

1289
00:50:24,829 --> 00:50:22,160
sophisticated

1290
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:24,839
uh not nuts and bolts

1291
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:28,800
explanation um of the uh of of these

1292
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:31,200
crafts so i would put myself in the same

1293
00:50:34,829 --> 00:50:33,839
category i came from the sort of the

1294
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:34,839
initial

1295
00:50:37,750 --> 00:50:37,040
extraterrestrial nuts and bolts here to

1296
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:37,760
do

1297
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:41,200
research uh but right now i have no idea

1298
00:50:48,150 --> 00:50:44,880
what ufos are i have no idea um i have

1299
00:50:51,190 --> 00:50:48,160
no idea what they are here to do

1300
00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:51,200
and the original

1301
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:54,240
scope of the dia program was threat

1302
00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:55,440
analysis

1303
00:50:59,430 --> 00:50:57,119
however

1304
00:51:02,390 --> 00:50:59,440
threat has two components one is

1305
00:51:05,190 --> 00:51:02,400
capability and the other is intent

1306
00:51:07,910 --> 00:51:05,200
we have gobs of data on the capability

1307
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:07,920
aspect we know that they outclass all of

1308
00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:10,319
our f-18s and our best technology and

1309
00:51:15,910 --> 00:51:12,720
we've known that for 75 years but we

1310
00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:15,920
have no idea if there's any intent or

1311
00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:18,079
agenda so therefore

1312
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:20,000
you know we can't make the statement

1313
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:20,880
that

1314
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:24,880
uaps or ufos are a threat

1315
00:51:29,349 --> 00:51:27,359
thank you both for the answer um dan has

1316
00:51:32,309 --> 00:51:29,359
a question that if the claims of having

1317
00:51:34,470 --> 00:51:32,319
hundreds of reports is true then the dia

1318
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:34,480
seemingly lied to senator john mccain by

1319
00:51:38,630 --> 00:51:37,280
only giving him the 38 thirds are they

1320
00:51:39,750 --> 00:51:38,640
willing to go on record with that

1321
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:39,760
statement or do you think they would

1322
00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:44,230
you know i think at the time that dia

1323
00:51:49,109 --> 00:51:47,200
made those comments to the senator um

1324
00:51:51,349 --> 00:51:49,119
they might not have known what they have

1325
00:51:52,390 --> 00:51:51,359
uh you know it's not entirely clear that

1326
00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:52,400
they've

1327
00:51:58,870 --> 00:51:56,800
uh someone knows where it is but uh you

1328
00:52:00,870 --> 00:51:58,880
know they're i'm not sure you know i

1329
00:52:03,270 --> 00:52:00,880
don't want to go a step too far beyond

1330
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:03,280
what i should say but uh i'm not sure

1331
00:52:07,510 --> 00:52:06,160
that they know all that they have

1332
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:07,520
sure i think that's fair and that's

1333
00:52:11,349 --> 00:52:09,280
something i've mentioned on the podcast

1334
00:52:12,790 --> 00:52:11,359
that sometimes people almost give

1335
00:52:14,230 --> 00:52:12,800
factions of the government too much

1336
00:52:16,549 --> 00:52:14,240
credit that they would know everything

1337
00:52:18,390 --> 00:52:16,559
and have access to everything as well so

1338
00:52:20,150 --> 00:52:18,400
mistakes can happen and maybe what they

1339
00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:20,160
said is you know that that was correct

1340
00:52:24,470 --> 00:52:22,480
at the time according to them a couple

1341
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:24,480
more questions to finish off gentlemen

1342
00:52:28,309 --> 00:52:26,160
karen has a question

1343
00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:28,319
she says it seems that so much of what

1344
00:52:32,150 --> 00:52:30,160
happens at skinwalker ranch is quite

1345
00:52:34,230 --> 00:52:32,160
negative deliberately frightening and

1346
00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:34,240
harmful were there any positive

1347
00:52:39,829 --> 00:52:36,880
experience recorded by ossa at the ranch

1348
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:39,839
and that goes to either of you

1349
00:52:46,309 --> 00:52:43,280
well i i know that um everybody that has

1350
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:46,319
been on the ranch has remarked on what a

1351
00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:47,520
beautiful

1352
00:52:56,470 --> 00:52:54,400
plus percent of the time it's a it's a

1353
00:52:57,349 --> 00:52:56,480
pristine environment it makes you feel

1354
00:53:00,549 --> 00:52:57,359
good

1355
00:53:02,470 --> 00:53:00,559
um it is beautiful and i i think all of

1356
00:53:04,390 --> 00:53:02,480
the people that we knew

1357
00:53:05,349 --> 00:53:04,400
from military intelligence said the same

1358
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:05,359
thing

1359
00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:07,760
um except for that two percent which

1360
00:53:12,870 --> 00:53:09,920
which happens uh that is not

1361
00:53:16,549 --> 00:53:12,880
particularly pleasant but i would say in

1362
00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:16,559
in you know in total uh my experiences

1363
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:18,720
on skin marker ranch were

1364
00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:22,800
um were in general uh positive

1365
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:24,640
mine too i mean i've said it before in

1366
00:53:28,950 --> 00:53:26,880
public that i always felt good there not

1367
00:53:31,349 --> 00:53:28,960
just uh reacting to the remarkable

1368
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:31,359
beauty of the place but something extra

1369
00:53:35,910 --> 00:53:33,760
sort of energized remember

1370
00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:35,920
the first second or third time i met the

1371
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:38,400
caretakers who spent all those years on

1372
00:53:41,829 --> 00:53:40,400
the property 24 7

1373
00:53:43,589 --> 00:53:41,839
they said the same thing you know it's

1374
00:53:45,670 --> 00:53:43,599
like i think it was my second or third

1375
00:53:48,309 --> 00:53:45,680
visit i said god i really feel good here

1376
00:53:50,150 --> 00:53:48,319
i i was i was afraid that it would seem

1377
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:50,160
like i'm going against the grain given

1378
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:51,520
all the weird things that had happened

1379
00:53:55,109 --> 00:53:53,200
on the property but then they told me

1380
00:53:57,990 --> 00:53:55,119
they get the same thing the the old

1381
00:53:59,589 --> 00:53:58,000
caretaker who was an elderly man was up

1382
00:54:01,589 --> 00:53:59,599
at the crack of dawn and work until

1383
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:01,599
night and and couldn't get enough he he

1384
00:54:05,829 --> 00:54:03,359
had the same feeling that it kind of

1385
00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:05,839
energized him the the print property

1386
00:54:09,829 --> 00:54:08,240
seems to size you up uh different people

1387
00:54:11,910 --> 00:54:09,839
have different reactions and people who

1388
00:54:14,230 --> 00:54:11,920
come in with a a negative haughty

1389
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:14,240
attitude who are uh trying to convince

1390
00:54:17,109 --> 00:54:15,920
themselves that they're not afraid

1391
00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:17,119
they're going to take it on their

1392
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:19,760
strapping guns they seem to have

1393
00:54:24,549 --> 00:54:22,240
often the most intense and negative

1394
00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:24,559
experiences in general the ranch seems

1395
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:26,640
to be benign

1396
00:54:31,349 --> 00:54:28,720
or at least indifferent to people but

1397
00:54:33,349 --> 00:54:31,359
sometimes it singles people out to give

1398
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:33,359
them a little show and to send something

1399
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:34,960
home with them and it often is the

1400
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:36,480
people who are

1401
00:54:40,470 --> 00:54:38,960
toughest and and want to deny that

1402
00:54:43,349 --> 00:54:40,480
there's anything to it those are the

1403
00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:43,359
people that get hurt the most

1404
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:45,280
it sounds like a little bit of karma and

1405
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:47,200
some instances it comes comes into

1406
00:54:51,430 --> 00:54:49,760
effect um two more questions

1407
00:54:52,870 --> 00:54:51,440
you touched on this a little bit before

1408
00:54:55,510 --> 00:54:52,880
but i'd like to get your opinions on it

1409
00:54:57,750 --> 00:54:55,520
properly this is from charlie he wants

1410
00:54:59,990 --> 00:54:57,760
to know do you think that the phenomenon

1411
00:55:02,789 --> 00:55:00,000
experienced by the navy such as the tic

1412
00:55:07,349 --> 00:55:02,799
tac is related to the same phenomenon

1413
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:07,359
being experienced at skinwalker ranch

1414
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:09,599
well i i can tell you that the

1415
00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:11,920
the tic tac was a

1416
00:55:17,349 --> 00:55:14,880
uh you know a hard object it was it was

1417
00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:17,359
caught through multiple sensors

1418
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:19,920
and so it was it was not a phantom it

1419
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:23,359
was it was definitely a hard object on

1420
00:55:28,069 --> 00:55:25,839
skinwalker ranch um

1421
00:55:30,950 --> 00:55:28,079
we we we reported in hunt for the

1422
00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:30,960
skinwalker that the gorman family

1423
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:33,839
had routine um interactions with these

1424
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:35,680
so-called nuts and bolts

1425
00:55:37,990 --> 00:55:37,119
uh craft

1426
00:55:39,829 --> 00:55:38,000
um

1427
00:55:44,150 --> 00:55:39,839
i know that i personally had an

1428
00:55:46,950 --> 00:55:44,160
encounter or saw a uh what looked like

1429
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:46,960
a low-flying jet fighter that came in

1430
00:55:51,349 --> 00:55:50,319
off over skinwalker ridge did a perfect

1431
00:55:54,870 --> 00:55:51,359
herp in

1432
00:55:57,030 --> 00:55:54,880
a turn above me completely silently this

1433
00:55:58,789 --> 00:55:57,040
was a at night but i could see the

1434
00:55:59,829 --> 00:55:58,799
structure behind the

1435
00:56:02,309 --> 00:55:59,839
um

1436
00:56:04,789 --> 00:56:02,319
behind the light and then it went north

1437
00:56:07,750 --> 00:56:04,799
back over skinwalker ridge that to me

1438
00:56:10,069 --> 00:56:07,760
looked like a an object jonathan axelrod

1439
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:10,079
when he was on the ranch also took a

1440
00:56:14,789 --> 00:56:12,240
photograph of what looked like a

1441
00:56:17,510 --> 00:56:14,799
metallic syndra cylindrical object in

1442
00:56:19,829 --> 00:56:17,520
the sky and brandon fugle himself you

1443
00:56:22,710 --> 00:56:19,839
know the owner of the skinwalker ranch

1444
00:56:24,549 --> 00:56:22,720
had a daylight sighting of a metallic

1445
00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:24,559
object so

1446
00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:27,520
i would say that there's a central core

1447
00:56:32,069 --> 00:56:29,359
of nuts and bolts

1448
00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:32,079
craft that have been visually

1449
00:56:37,270 --> 00:56:34,720
um you know seen on on the skinwalker

1450
00:56:40,069 --> 00:56:37,280
ranch but layered on top of that there

1451
00:56:42,950 --> 00:56:40,079
is the paranormal disneyland there's the

1452
00:56:44,390 --> 00:56:42,960
all of the all of the different uh

1453
00:56:46,230 --> 00:56:44,400
objects

1454
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:46,240
seem to co-locate

1455
00:56:50,789 --> 00:56:49,440
with paranormal phenomena at the same

1456
00:56:53,510 --> 00:56:50,799
time so

1457
00:56:55,990 --> 00:56:53,520
you know if you if you go into any other

1458
00:56:59,109 --> 00:56:56,000
so-called hotspot in the united states

1459
00:57:02,309 --> 00:56:59,119
for example dolce new mexico or yakima

1460
00:57:05,349 --> 00:57:02,319
washington crestone colorado or any of

1461
00:57:08,150 --> 00:57:05,359
the places out east even perm in russia

1462
00:57:10,230 --> 00:57:08,160
they have the same sort of phenomenon um

1463
00:57:13,750 --> 00:57:10,240
that you know you've got these nuts and

1464
00:57:15,109 --> 00:57:13,760
bolts objects that seem to co-locate at

1465
00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:15,119
the same time

1466
00:57:18,390 --> 00:57:16,240
with

1467
00:57:19,990 --> 00:57:18,400
unusual phenomena and these are all

1468
00:57:22,230 --> 00:57:20,000
those categories that i was talking

1469
00:57:23,589 --> 00:57:22,240
about earlier which we label human

1470
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:23,599
effects

1471
00:57:27,270 --> 00:57:25,119
i mean you can make an obvious

1472
00:57:29,109 --> 00:57:27,280
comparison tic tac

1473
00:57:31,349 --> 00:57:29,119
and and the other craft that have been

1474
00:57:33,349 --> 00:57:31,359
investigated by atip yeah they're

1475
00:57:35,349 --> 00:57:33,359
similar to craft that have been seen

1476
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:35,359
over the ranch but you don't know if

1477
00:57:39,109 --> 00:57:37,280
that's a distraction or not whether you

1478
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:39,119
know i developed the idea that maybe

1479
00:57:43,910 --> 00:57:41,520
these ufos are like tinsel on a

1480
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:43,920
christmas tree or or shiny objects to

1481
00:57:48,950 --> 00:57:46,160
get our attention and distract us from

1482
00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:48,960
the real big mystery if if asap had been

1483
00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:50,480
allowed to continue

1484
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:52,640
we might have some answers by now uh but

1485
00:57:55,910 --> 00:57:54,880
we don't you know we we can guess what

1486
00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:55,920
we don't know

1487
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:57,040
right

1488
00:58:00,950 --> 00:57:59,280
final question from logan uh thank you

1489
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:00,960
both for your unbelievably hard and

1490
00:58:05,109 --> 00:58:03,359
relentless work all these years for both

1491
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:05,119
of you what is the number one most

1492
00:58:10,470 --> 00:58:06,960
important reason for getting the truth

1493
00:58:12,309 --> 00:58:10,480
out and that's to george first

1494
00:58:14,230 --> 00:58:12,319
well i mean we want to know our place in

1495
00:58:17,430 --> 00:58:14,240
the universe we want to know our our

1496
00:58:19,270 --> 00:58:17,440
place on the food chain um

1497
00:58:21,349 --> 00:58:19,280
what is this intelligence that's been

1498
00:58:24,309 --> 00:58:21,359
interacting with us throughout history

1499
00:58:26,710 --> 00:58:24,319
does it affect uh human affairs on a

1500
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:26,720
macro scale we can see on the micro

1501
00:58:31,430 --> 00:58:29,200
scale where it zips around and scares

1502
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:31,440
the bejesus out of pilots and military

1503
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:33,440
facilities and nuclear plant managers

1504
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:35,040
and things of that we know that it

1505
00:58:38,630 --> 00:58:36,480
interacts with humans in very

1506
00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:38,640
frightening ways what we call abduction

1507
00:58:42,470 --> 00:58:40,640
and missing time experiences there have

1508
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:42,480
been significant mental

1509
00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:43,760
uh

1510
00:58:48,789 --> 00:58:46,160
physical effects health effects as

1511
00:58:50,710 --> 00:58:48,799
documented in this book i mean it's it's

1512
00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:50,720
interacted with us for a long time but

1513
00:58:55,510 --> 00:58:53,200
at what level does it interact with us

1514
00:58:57,589 --> 00:58:55,520
and how much does it shape human affairs

1515
00:58:59,430 --> 00:58:57,599
on a a global scale

1516
00:59:01,829 --> 00:58:59,440
column has had some interesting thoughts

1517
00:59:03,510 --> 00:59:01,839
on this over the years but uh there's a

1518
00:59:05,430 --> 00:59:03,520
suspicion that maybe

1519
00:59:07,430 --> 00:59:05,440
you know what whatever is going on it's

1520
00:59:10,150 --> 00:59:07,440
in their interest not necessarily in our

1521
00:59:11,349 --> 00:59:10,160
interests and they might be manipulating

1522
00:59:13,270 --> 00:59:11,359
us

1523
00:59:15,430 --> 00:59:13,280
in ways that we cannot imagine and

1524
00:59:17,190 --> 00:59:15,440
they're not good for us so i think it's

1525
00:59:19,670 --> 00:59:17,200
essential to our survival to figure this

1526
00:59:22,630 --> 00:59:19,680
out

1527
00:59:25,030 --> 00:59:22,640
yeah i i think i i think from the

1528
00:59:26,230 --> 00:59:25,040
um just from the very narrow perspective

1529
00:59:28,710 --> 00:59:26,240
of the book

1530
00:59:31,270 --> 00:59:28,720
um i think the main reason that we

1531
00:59:33,829 --> 00:59:31,280
decided to to move this book out into

1532
00:59:35,430 --> 00:59:33,839
the public was that we'd we'd had

1533
00:59:37,990 --> 00:59:35,440
between december

1534
00:59:41,510 --> 00:59:38,000
uh 2017 when the new york times article

1535
00:59:44,309 --> 00:59:41,520
had reported on all of the uh what what

1536
00:59:47,750 --> 00:59:44,319
atip was doing and and the subsequent

1537
00:59:49,589 --> 00:59:47,760
four years i mean that really focused on

1538
00:59:52,309 --> 00:59:49,599
you know somewhere between two percent

1539
00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:52,319
and five percent of what assaf was doing

1540
00:59:57,109 --> 00:59:53,119
so

1541
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:57,119
information in the book out was that we

1542
01:00:02,309 --> 00:59:59,280
wanted to correct the record and show

1543
01:00:05,109 --> 01:00:02,319
that asap was probably the broadest

1544
01:00:07,030 --> 01:00:05,119
scope largest ufo program

1545
01:00:08,309 --> 01:00:07,040
ever conducted by the united states

1546
01:00:10,950 --> 01:00:08,319
government

1547
01:00:13,589 --> 01:00:10,960
and certainly if you compare it against

1548
01:00:16,309 --> 01:00:13,599
project sign grudge and blue book that's

1549
01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:16,319
probably accurate um

1550
01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:19,280
so so the main motivation for doing that

1551
01:00:25,109 --> 01:00:22,640
was was to show people that osap was a

1552
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:25,119
very successful program but it had

1553
01:00:30,309 --> 01:00:28,559
massive scope

1554
01:00:32,230 --> 01:00:30,319
thank you both of your time very much

1555
01:00:34,470 --> 01:00:32,240
appreciate it people you can get your

1556
01:00:36,069 --> 01:00:34,480
copy of skinwalkers at the pentagon and

1557
01:00:38,549 --> 01:00:36,079
insiders account of the secret

1558
01:00:39,750 --> 01:00:38,559
government ufo program at the usual

1559
01:00:41,910 --> 01:00:39,760
places i'll put the links in the

1560
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:41,920
description for that as well and please

1561
01:00:46,470 --> 01:00:43,680
check out george's interview with both

1562
01:00:48,390 --> 01:00:46,480
james and column at mysterywire2 again

1563
01:00:49,670 --> 01:00:48,400
i'll put the description in the links

1564
01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:49,680
thank you very much for your time

1565
01:00:53,270 --> 01:00:51,200
gentlemen

1566
01:00:55,349 --> 01:00:53,280
thank you

1567
01:00:57,349 --> 01:00:55,359
that is all for this week's show thank

1568
01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:57,359
you very much for listening please

1569
01:01:01,990 --> 01:00:59,520
remember to leave the podcast review on

1570
01:01:04,309 --> 01:01:02,000
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1571
01:01:06,230 --> 01:01:04,319
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1572
01:01:08,390 --> 01:01:06,240
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1573
01:01:09,910 --> 01:01:08,400
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1574
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:09,920
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1575
01:01:15,109 --> 01:01:12,400
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1576
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:15,119
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1577
01:01:20,230 --> 01:01:17,359
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1578
01:01:23,349 --> 01:01:20,240
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1579
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:23,359
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1580
01:01:28,590 --> 01:01:25,520
and again folks as always keep looking

1581
01:01:48,950 --> 01:01:28,600
up you never know what you might see

1582
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:55,650
is

1583
01:01:55,660 --> 01:02:04,630
[Music]

1584
01:02:07,750 --> 01:02:06,069
i can't imagine how it could have been

1585
01:02:29,829 --> 01:02:07,760
any better i got to the top of the

1586
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:31,190
they thought this was noise they thought

1587
01:02:48,390 --> 01:02:43,960
[Music]

1588
01:02:58,440 --> 01:02:48,400
if you really want to know who i think

1589
01:03:26,789 --> 01:03:03,829
[Music]

1590
01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:28,230
is

1591
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:34,160
[Music]

1592
01:03:42,870 --> 01:03:36,079
it wasn't a tic tac and not quite a

1593
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:56,710
[Music]

1594
01:04:22,950 --> 01:03:58,670
it's